NOTE TO READER: PLEASE READ YESTERDAY FIRST FOR THIS TO MAKE SENSE
My responses are getting too long for the comment system, so here's what's been said thus far:
"...you Christians out there have your own explaining to do."
Joey, Christianity has more followers than any other religion. That doesn't mean its better. It has more followers because there are a lot of DIFFERENT followers within the religion: Mormons, Lutherans, Baptist. Even all the different branches within Christianity disagree with each other, so I say if you want to point the finger at Christianity, point it at what ever branch within.
But then I say, why point the finger at all. I understand that you want to fight for the underdog, but there is no reason to redirect the "finger" as a way of defense. I read the article. It is written with an aggressive tone. I am not writing to defend the article's point, I am writing to stop the finger pointing--at any religion--because I think it’s not right. There are better ways to debate a point.
Brandon | 09.09.04 - 3:40 pm | #
"Beyond all these things is the actual heart of the matter that Muslims recognize the prophets of the Jews, and The Prophet of the Christians (Jesus himself)"
According to Christianity Jesus wasn't a prophet. He was God. There is a big difference. Yeah, Mohammed recognized him, but only in a way that was similar to Judaism. Jesus can't be Christ if he was only a prophet. I don't think it was easy to convert the Jews to Christianity. He wasn't just one more to the list. Well he was to those that remained Jews and to Muslims, but not to Christians. To Christians he was/is the Messiah--one above all others, including prophets. In my opinion and experience, its not an easy thing to except. Christians share the prophets of the Jews.
Well, , I hope this Christian's own explanations were worth something.
Brandon | 09.09.04 - 3:42 pm | #
......sigh. Okay, B. We can do this.
First off, yes, you are correct the umbrella of Christianity does hold more followers than any other religion. BUT as you say underneath that umbrella are disconnected factions that couldn't agree on point one, so it's hard to consider that dominance. Secondly, Christianity has been on a constant downslide in popularity for a long time now and religious scholars are theorizing that it will slip down from that top spot within THIS decade, so a fractious and down-turning dominance doesn't mean much to me. Besides that, what does popularity have to do with this discussion at all? If more people subscribe to George W Bush's lies than Kerry, does that make Bush right? No. Irrelevent.
Joey | Email poop | 09.09.04 - 3:55 pm | #
Secondly, Islam is hardly an underdog. As Christianity loses it's centuries old foothold, Islam is the one gaining the most ground on that top spot.
The point of this post was to point out that A) his argument was rediculous, and B) if you accept his argument then it also applies to ALL Christians for the same reasons, no matter what branch because they are all derived from the original and share these rituals and traditions.
Joey | Email poop | 09.09.04 - 3:59 pm | #
Hi, Joey, I'm back.
"Drinking Jesus's blood and eating his flesh. Now in a religion that subscribes to such ethics as "thou shalt not kill" and all that, doesn't consuming his blood and flesh seem strangely out of place?"
Hahaha, c'mon now. You drink wine and eat bread. No one is killed in this practice. It is a symbol of his blood and body. It is metephor for excepting Jesus Christ. There is nothing cruel or sick about it. I can give you wierd, but that's it.
Brandon | 09.09.04 - 3:59 pm | #
Actually, according to Christianity, Jesus WAS a prophet. He was THE prophet. Remember that tricky thing called the trinity? Simultaneously he was the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Right? Well, the son part of that was Jesus and he was a prophet. To Christians he is the son of God here to spread the word of his father, and historically the people spreading the word of god have always been called prophets.
"Mohammed recognized him (Jesus) but only in a way that was similar to Judaism"
What are you talking about?!?! No way. That is just completely wrong. The Jews at the time of Christ's life hated Jesus and all but forced the hand of Pilat to crucify him.
Mohammed on the other hand appreciated and respected the teachings of Jesus, but said that there was more that God wanted us to hear; the Qur'an.
Keep in mind B, I am not Muslim. I'm not preaching here, I'm just telling you what I know.
Joey | Email poop | 09.09.04 - 4:13 pm | #
"We can do this"?
I was doing some explaining, not starting an argument. I wasn't pointing out the popularity of Christianity, I never used that word. I was stressing the point that you don't have a big enough finger to point at all Christians--just whoever wrote that article. Maybe you have ill will toward the religion. You can think what you want. Just know that if you point a finger at "Christians" you point a finger at me. Do you want to include me in this argument? Don't you know my views and how I feel about other religions? I love everybody. Even people that hate me and my religion. Is it bad to be Christian? That is what your finger says. Ok Ill stop using the stupid finger anology. Your writing expresses anger towards who? Christians or just that guy?
Brandon| # | 09.09.04 - 4:14 pm
"Hahaha, c'mon now. You drink wine and eat bread. No one is killed in this practice. It is a symbol of his blood and body."
Not according to the heads of the branches that still practice this one. They call it "transubstantiation" and the idea is that the bread and wine BECOME the blood and body inside you if you are faithful.
You might consider it just a symbol, but then you shouldn't practice that tradition, because that's not what it's supposed to be. According to doctrine anyway.
Joey | Email poop | 09.09.04 - 4:17 pm | #
"Actually, according to Christianity, Jesus WAS a prophet."
Prophets prophesied about Christ and his fulfillments. Yes, the crowds in his time called him a prophet. In Christianity he is not called a prophet like ALL the prophets before him. He is called the Messiah. There is a difference. Also, he is not THE prophet because Christianity shares its prophets with the Jews. THE signifies there is only one.
"Mohammed recognized him (Jesus) but only in a way that was similar to Judaism"
Why do you say such things as "completely wrong"? Those words make you sound arrogant and incapable of considering alternatives. I was speaking about the religion as a whole. They recognize Jesus as a prophet, today, not as the Messiah. Islam shares the same opinion.
Oh and underdog. I miss used that word. I meant that Islam was getting attacked and you were defending them--no one else was.
Brandon | 09.09.04 - 4:39 pm | #
"Mohammed on the other hand appreciated and respected the teachings of Jesus..."
Apparently not all of his teachings.
"You might consider it just a symbol, but then you shouldn't practice that tradition, because that's not what it's supposed to be. According to doctrine anyway."
Geez, Joey. Don't go there. I can practice what I choose. I still don't think you understand what I was saying about Christianity. If you accept Jesus as your savior and repent while following his teachings in your daily life, then you are a Christian. I am a simple Christian and I am aloud to call myself one. I practice what the new testemnet says. Not you or someone else. Don't include all the other stuff you read in articles about denominations. You sound like the guy that wrote the article.
Brandon | 09.09.04 - 4:47 pm | #
B, please relax. You're talking about anger and ill will from me, and I don't know what you're talking about. I have no specific anamosity towards Christians, but I do have a problem when some of them show a complete lack of logic and rational thought.
Also, you say "I was doing some explaining, not starting an argument." That's fine, but I disagreed with your explanantion, so I'm telling you why. I'd like to think of it as a debate, but if you want to get irate about it, go ahead.
Whether you like it or not, you did bring up the issue of popularity. You did not use that word, but you did point out that they have the most followers of any religion on earth. That's sounds like popularity to me. Don't try to pick at semantics when we both can look back and see exactly what you said.
And, sad to say, but Jesus is, was and always will be considered a prophet by CHristians and religious scholars alike. Ask a priest. If you read back to what I said, it's very specific about him being a prohet AND something more. And when I say he was "THE" prophet that doesn't mean I'm suggesting he was the only prophet, I was saying he was the most important. And you can't disagree with him being the most important because according to your religion if you lived a good life, following all the ten commandments, BUT you died before Jesus was born you ARE NOT SAVED. So without Jesus you can't even get into heaven. How is he not the most important then?
"Why do you say such things as "completely wrong"? Those words make you sound arrogant and incapable of considering alternatives." Brandon, it's not arrogance it's called a fact. Should I consider the alternative if someone were to tell me the sky is orange? No.
I can and often do consider alternatives to spiritual ideas, but the doctrine of Islam is a solid, written fact. I can't consider your idea as an alternative when I know what Mohammed said. Islam's concept of Jesus and the Jews' concept are completely different. To the Jews Jesus was a false prophet (unless you count Jews for Jesus, but they're only a hair away from Christianity anyway).
"Apparently not all of his teachings." What? I'm sorry, but what does that even mean?
"Geez, Joey. Don't go there. I can practice what I choose. I still don't think you understand what I was saying about Christianity. If you accept Jesus as your savior and repent while following his teachings in your daily life, then you are a Christian. I am a simple Christian and I am aloud to call myself one. I practice what the new testemnet says. Not you or someone else. Don't include all the other stuff you read in articles about denominations. You sound like the guy that wrote the article."
Yes, you can, B. You can do whatever you want, it's called free will. But you should really think about the why behind these things, like the blood and the body, or else you're just going through the motions because that's what you were told. "Articles I read, huh?" You're the one who should do some reading. I was raised Catholic until I was twelve years old, and I've studied religions since my freshman year in college. The blood and the body MEANS ONE THING. That's another thing that I can't "consider alternatives" on. It's a Catholic ritual, and it is what I said above. But, fine, let's play it your way. So, it's just a symbol for blood and flesh. So... whether it's symbolically or actually, the idea is that you are consuming his blood and his flesh, right? Why? What good could that do? I mean, if you accept Jesus as your savior and repent for your sins and follow the ten commendments and all that, what good could it possibly do to take his blood and flesh inside you? If the idea is that you are taking in a bit of his spirit with these things, well, that my friend is distinctly pagan. Period.
Now, what this all comes down to is you feel threatened because of what I said in my original post. Whether you admit it or not you took a defensive stance on this because you felt you own beliefs were under attack, but that means you missed the point of the original post.
Essentially what I was trying to say that it is hypocritical for ANY Christian from ANY branch to try to invalidate a religion in any way just because of co-opting things from past religions, because they themselves did it too. They can't use this argument because it applies to them. I didn't attack you or your beliefs or try to say that their co-opting makes Christian's religion invalid, I was pointing out that by this guy's logic he was saying it without realizing it. My argument is that if you accept this guy's reasons then you have to apply it to Christianity too. The easiest way out for you is to just say you disagree with his reasons, and then there is no argument, is there? You're the one who took this other places, I just followed.
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